Metagame np: SV DOU Stage 8: Double Trouble

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Actuarily

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Team Rocket's rockin'
Talkin' trouble, walkin' trouble
Double trouble, big trouble's gonna follow you
Team Rocket's rockin'
Looks like Team Rocket's blasting off again!


:SV/Basculegion: :SV/Flutter Mane:

Welcome to the first DOU suspect since the Teal Mask DLC! This time, we are going to be doing something a little different; testing two Pokémon at once! Since according to the recent survey players would like to see action taken on both Basculegion & Flutter Mane by a large margin, the council has decided to test both of these offensive Ghost types at the same time. This way we can more rapidly tier and potentially focus on other metagame threats in the coming weeks.

The way this will work is that players will ladder for suspect requirements, same as always (more info at the bottom of this post). Qualified players will be able to vote in two separate votes for each Pokemon. So a vote on Basculegion has no bearing on your vote on Flutter Mane, and vice versa. You may vote to ban both, neither, or one or the other. This vote will count as just one vote towards a tiering contributor badge.

Basculegion has been a hotly debated Pokémon since it was freed via a council vote after the Teal Mask DLC. Its powerful late game move in Last Respects, when combined with its ability Adaptability to power up STAB moves and its 112 base Attack allow it to OHKO most Pokémon after a few allies have fainted. Since the Teal Mask DLC, Basculegion has also gained Flip Turn, which allows it to have more of a presence in the early game, before it wants to just use Last Respects in the late game. Basculegion primarily uses a choice scarf to outspeed most Pokémon, allowing it to either Flip Turn or do impressive damage with Last Respects before it can get hit.

Basculegion is not without counters, however. There are many priority attacks that are able to hit Basculegion super effectively before it is able to get off powerful Last Respects, such as Grassy Glide from Rillaboom & the Ogerpon forms, and Sucker Punch from the likes of Chien-Pao & Kingambit. There are even Pokémon that can outspeed a Choice Scarfed Basculegion and KO it, such as Dragapult, a Protosynthesis boosted Flutter Mane, or other Choice Scarfed Pokémon like Chi-Yu and Gholdengo. As Basculegion’s longevity often relies on hitting opponents first, speed control; both Trick Room & Tailwind, can also be used to help neuter Basculegion.

Similar to Basculegion, Flutter Mane was also banned in a previous version of the metagame, before Pokémon Home was released, but was unbanned afterwards. While Flutter Mane is also an offensive Ghost type, it functions very differently than Basculegion. While it does not get nearly as many OHKOs, Flutter Mane is able to use its exceptional Special Attack and Speed stats combined with its great typing combo in Ghost & Fairy, to outspeed and outdamage much of the metagame. Its ability, Protosynthesis, allows it to further boost these stats either in sun or by using a Booster Energy. None-Booster energy sets often run Choice Specs to maximize its damage output. Because it has such optimized stats, Flutter Mane is often able to invest its EVs in HP and Defense, allowing it to reach respectable bulk while still hitting quite hard.

Flutter Mane does not quite have the same clear cut counters as Basculegion, but that does not mean it is without checks. Because of Flutter Mane’s combination of high Special Attack and low Defense stats, it struggles into bulky Assault Vest physical attackers, such as Rillaboom. Priority attackers like Chien-Pao, Palafin, and the aforementioned Rillaboom can take advantage of its low Defence stat can KO it before it’s able to get off powerful attacks. Also as Flutter Mane is often choice locked into using Fairy moves, it can also be beaten by Fire & Steel types, such as Heatran, Volcanion, Kingambit, and Ogerpon-Fire. Similar to Basculegion, as Flutter Mane often relies on attacking first, it can be decimated by opposing speed control of Trick Room & Tailwind.

As usual, 60% of the vote must be in favor to ban Basculegion & Flutter Mane.

Important: For this suspect, there will be two ways to qualify. The first is the typical laddering period, where players must reach the minimum GXE. The second is by winning a live suspect tournament, to be held in the Smogon Doubles Room. You may compete in the suspect tournament on any account, and will need to post proof of you winning the suspect tournament on the voter ID thread.

There will be two live suspect tournaments:

Suspect Tournament Times
Saturday, October 7th at 12:00 PM Eastern time (GMT-4)
Sunday, October 8th at 4:00 PM Eastern time (GMT-4)

The laddering period will last for a total of nine days.

Laddering Period
Start: Friday, October 7th at 8:00 PM Eastern time (GMT-4)
End: Sunday, October 15th at 8:00 PM Eastern time (GMT-4)

All games must be played on the Pokemon Showdown! Doubles OU ladder on a fresh alt with the prefix DOUFB [name]. For example, I might register "DOUFB Actuarily” to ladder with. You must follow this format to qualify.

To qualify to vote, you must achieve a minimum GXE of 80 with at least 50 games played. In addition, you may subtract 1 game for every 0.2 GXE you have above 80 GXE, down to a minimum of 30 games at a GXE of 84. As always, needing more than 50 games to reach 80 GXE is fine.

If anyone would like a sample team with both Basculegion & Flutter Mane, look no further:
Priority Offense by eragon11145 & Toxinalpaca
:Rillaboom: :Ogerpon-Hearthflame: :Chien-Pao: :Dragonite: :Flutter Mane: :Basculegion:

GXEminimum games
8050
80.249
80.448
80.647
80.846
8145
81.244
81.443
81.642
81.841
8240
82.239
82.438
82.637
82.836
8335
83.234
83.433
83.632
83.831
8430

Basculegion & Flutter Mane will be legal during this suspect.
 
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GenOne

DOU main. GMT-7. PS!: GenOne
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:flutter-mane: re: Flutter Mane :flutter-mane:

I am fully in support of this suspect test and I will likely be voting to ban Flutter Mane, although as always my mind is never 100% made up and can be persuaded by good counterarguments.

From my perspective, the Doubles OU teambuilder feels overly restrictive due to how many team slot options are invalidated by Flutter Mane's:
  • blistering Speed
  • "perfect" Fairy/Ghost STAB coverage, and
  • formidable Special Attack and Special Defense stats
Flutter Mane's base 135 Speed stat has two different implications, depending on its chosen set:
  • With a full 252+ EV investment and Protosynthesis boost, Flutter Mane can outrun virtually all other Protosynthesis and Quark Drive users (like Walking Wake, with the exception of Iron Bundle), weather beneficiaries (like Basculegion, with the exception of Lilligant Hisuian and Barraskewda), and even a large number of slower Pokemon that are recieving a Tailwind boost.

  • Alternatively, Flutter Mane can actually get away with foregoing most of its Speed investment to fortify its bulk while still being reasonably fast. For example, Flutter Mane's current sample dex spread of 248 HP / 156 Def / 40 SpA / 64 Spe survives a Tera Dark Black Glasses Kingambit Sucker Punch and outspeeds Tornadus, converting Flutter Mane from a min-maxed special glass cannon into a much more well-rounded Fairy/Ghost attacker.
Flutter Mane's Fairy/Ghost typing is literally "perfect" STAB coverage with zero resists and five super-effective matchups into Dark-, Dragon-, Fighting-, Ghost-, and Psychic-types. Very few Pokemon are able to achieve STAB coverage this perfect; Marshadow's Fighting/Ghost typing is the last example that comes to mind for me in past gens.

And finally, Flutter Mane's base 135 Special Attack makes it one of the naturally strongest special attackers in the format while its base 135 Special Defense makes it able to comfortably take a Special Attack or two even with no HP investment.

In summary, it is no surprise that Flutter Mane is one of the most-used Pokemon in the format given how many advantages it has going for it, and I believe that its presence is preventing the current metagame from developing into something more diverse and balanced.

:basculegion: re: Basculegion-M :basculegion:

I am fully in support of this suspect test and I will likely be voting to ban Basculegion-M, although as always my mind is never 100% made up and can be persuaded by good counterarguments.

For context, I was one of the first people on council to advocate for a Basculegion-M suspect last time, and after getting reqs I did vote to ban Basculegion-M because it was clear to me how potent it was as an endgame revenge killer that could literally reverse otherwise lost games.

But there is some fine nuance to Basculegion-M's damage calcs, as that is what separates Basculegion-M (which many want banned again) from Basculegion-F (which as far as I know everyone is fine with). All other things equal, Basculegion-M is about ~14% stronger than Basculegion-F; put another way, a Jolly scarfed Adaptability Basculegion-F still comes out a bit stronger than an itemless Adamant Basculegion-M with Swift Swim:
252+ Atk Basculegion Last Respects (200 BP) vs. 252 HP / 52 Def Rillaboom: 333-393 (82.4 - 97.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Grassy Terrain recovery
252 Atk Adaptability Basculegion-F Last Respects (200 BP) vs. 252 HP / 52 Def Rillaboom: 354-418 (87.6 - 103.4%) -- 25% chance to OHKO
Granted, Basculegion-M with the same Adaptability set always got the OHKO on dex spread Rillaboom with a 200 BP:
252+ Atk Adaptability Basculegion Last Respects (200 BP) vs. 252 HP / 52 Def Rillaboom: 444-524 (109.9 - 129.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
In practice, what I recall of Basculegion-M prior to the Teal Mask DLC was that Adaptability Basculegion-M started to claim OHKOs on a lot of the metagame at 150 BP Last Respects (2 allies fainted), while a Swift Swim Basculegion-M or Adaptability Basculegion-F needed to hit 200+ BP to achieve the same damage output.

What I wasn't sure of recently was if the new Teal Mask DLC had brought enough counterplay to make Basculegion-M manageable, but it's clear to me now based on both community feedback and games I've watched personally that Basculegion-M is still problematic.

Counterplay has always existed to Basculegion-M, mainly in the form of strong Sucker Punch users like Kingambit and Chien-Pao, opposing Tailwind or Trick Room speed control, or otherwise just getting into an endgame position where you're left with more Pokemon than your opponent that can 2v1 the Basculegion into a KO. The reintroduction of Grassy Glide, while not a huge improvement, does make it slightly easier to naturally fit Basculegion checks onto your team, but overall I recognize that Basculegion-M is still pretty much as problematic as before.

:torkoal: re: The recent quickban votes and my voice on council :torkoal:

To address an elephant in the room I, as a DOU council member, went into the most recent Basculegion-M quickban votes with a less informed opinion than would normally be acceptable to me and I also ended up being one of the "do not ban" votes.

A number of people in the community are aware that my activity in August wavered due to work commitments. What people don't know is that I was pretty much completely offline for most of September due to health concerns I had to navigate, and that lead to me having to scramble to get caught up with all the DLC developments at the last minute when the votes took place. For me at that time, I just felt personally that I didn't have enough data to conclude that a quickban was in order.

This isn't meant to be an excuse or cop-out for how I voted during the quickban slates (if I could do it over, I would've tried to abstain since I felt underinformed), nor is it meant to discount the valid points that many others have made in the threads about why freeing Basc-M was a bad idea. But it is an appeal to remind the community that there are real people behind our computer screens; I inherently want to do a good job as a council member, and there's a fine line between voicing constructive criticisms and being hurtful just for the sake of it.

In any case though, hopefully the dual suspect of Basculegion-M and Flutter Mane puts us back on a good timeline where both Pokemon get dealt with in roughly the same amount of time that the community at large would've wanted. I look forward to reading everyone else's thoughts, both here and on Discord!
 
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Fran

formerly Frania
is a Tiering Contributor
First I'd like to say that I think the idea of suspecting 2 mons at once is great, with so many good mons added to the metagame its good that we can move forward fast and not be stuck with them for the next months. Like most other people I do agree that Basculegion-M needs to be removed. Nothing can take Last Respects in the late game, tera and other pokemons abilities can help it get around priority, its good like nothing else and there aren't really reliable counters to it. Flutter Mane is a little bit uncertain for me, its clear that it would become the best mon in the metagame and would likely be used on the majority of teams. At the same time unlike Basculegion it does have real answers like Heatran, Volcanion or Amoongus. Its also checked by the other tier 1 mon - Ogerpon-Hearthflame. For the moment Flutter doesn't seem obviously broken to me and I would like to see how the metagame evolves after the Basculegion ban before we remove it.
 

LovelyLuna

Lost in a life full of mistakes
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^ Pretty much how I currently feel

:Basculegion: is pretty much always getting 2 or so kills when played correctly and Tera lets it bs past through its checks. Making pokemon Tera Normal for it isn't fun or healthy for the game. Power level may have risen through dlc, but we didn't get much that can withstand it's sweep. I will probably be voing Ban, unless someone can convince me it isn't broken and healthy for the meta.

:Flutter Mane: is very very good, the best pokemon in the format, but is it broken? The metagame is mostly physical (:Rillaboom:, :Chien-Pao:, :Kingambit:, :Ogerpon-Hearthflame: etc.), exploiting it's low physical defense. I do, however, think this is BECAUSE of :Flutter Mane:, Because it is so good, you can't really justify other special attackers over it, the remaining special attackers relevant in the meta have a positive matchup into and/or pair well with :Flutter Mane:, (:Gholdengo:, :Heatran:, :Volcanion:, :Chi-Yu:..). But unlike :Basculegion:, you don't have to go out of your way through tera to counter it. So I don't really think it's broken, there are enough checks, but It can invalidate so many pokemon simply by existing. Whether that qualifies for a ban, I'm not sure. The ban of :Flutter Mane: will let the metagame develop further and might create diversity, but another pokemon (or few) will probably take it's spot. The best special attacker that is hard to justify not using, if a pokemon has a bad mu the pokemon's viability is hindered. I'm currently leaning towards Do Not Ban, at least for now.
 

Actuarily

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For Flutter Mane, I’ll keep this relatively short. While I think Flutter is an extremely good Pokémon in the metagame, I don’t think it’s banworthy. Due to its extremely low physical defense, it struggles into most bulky physical attackers like Rillaboom, the Ogerpons, Diancie, etc. It also struggles into bulky fire types that aren’t physical attackers like Heatran & Volcanion. Lastly, speed control can really neuter it, as it often relies on attacking first, as it usually needs two attacks to get ko’s, but can’t withstand two attacks from opponents. I’ll be voting DNB.

:SV/Basculegion:

With regards to Basculegion, I really think with the addition of Grassy Glide and a bunch of good Grass (Ogerpons) & Normal types (Ursalunas) being added to the metagame, there is sufficient checks for it. I admit in the right positioning late game Basculegion can be absolutely devastating, but if there are enough checks in the metagame, then I feel that there’s ways to handle it. We can even look at a metagame before these new methods were added, and where Basculegion was banned (but Basc-f was legal and needed to be checked), and see that many of the top used Pokémon are able to handle it in some way. This post has the full playoff stats from OSDT, and of the top 20 Pokémon by usage, many have a way of handling Basculegion such as:
Flutter Mane, Rillaboom, Chi-Yu, Chien-Pao, Indeedee-f, Grimmsnarl, Kingambit, Dragapult.


Code:
+ ---- + ------------------ + ---- + ------- + ------- +
| Rank | Pokemon            | Use  | Usage % |  Win %  |
+ ---- + ------------------ + ---- + ------- + ------- +
| 1    | Flutter Mane       |   69 |  69.00% |  50.72% |
| 2    | Landorus-Therian   |   55 |  55.00% |  49.09% |
| 3    | Iron Hands         |   49 |  49.00% |  46.94% |
| 4    | Rillaboom          |   34 |  34.00% |  32.35% |
| 5    | Tornadus           |   30 |  30.00% |  50.00% |
| 5    | Chi-Yu             |   30 |  30.00% |  46.67% |
| 7    | Chien-Pao          |   26 |  26.00% |  61.54% |
| 8    | Cresselia          |   24 |  24.00% |  54.17% |
| 9    | Volcanion          |   21 |  21.00% |  47.62% |
| 9    | Heatran            |   21 |  21.00% |  47.62% |
| 9    | Amoonguss          |   21 |  21.00% |  42.86% |
| 12   | Gholdengo          |   20 |  20.00% |  65.00% |
| 13   | Palafin            |   16 |  16.00% |  43.75% |
| 13   | Basculegion-F      |   16 |  16.00% |  43.75% |
| 15   | Indeedee-F         |   12 |  12.00% |  58.33% |
| 16   | Glimmora           |   10 |  10.00% |  60.00% |
| 16   | Diancie            |   10 |  10.00% |  50.00% |
| 16   | Grimmsnarl         |   10 |  10.00% |  30.00% |
| 19   | Kingambit          |    9 |   9.00% |  66.67% |
| 19   | Dragapult          |    9 |   9.00% |  33.33% |
So of the above 20 mons, 8 can be considered checks (not including Basc-f, which would be a speed tie). I’ll also note that a few that I haven’t included some other options like Tornadus, Amoonguss, Gholdengo, or Iron Hands that can also be used, even if they usually require a partner to get the positioning right.

So even in this metagame, players do not have to go out of their way to check Basculegion, and then they’ve been given additional tools in this metagame.

But, to cut out all hypotheticals and just show how Basculegion is playing in the metagame, I’ll continue what I did on the last thread of looking at all tour replays featuring Basculegion, and try to make a determination if it’s too strong despite these checks.

Replays where Basculegion looks too strong:
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9doublesou-1964791941-m4hdxsem57pu24jqv9t7qjpk0nldrpcpw
Here it’s able to utilize its new move in flip turn and get a lot of ko’s.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9doublesou-1961972045-g62haujiclbuye5wsi43llwcqhefhv3pw
Despite Basculegion losing to Tera normal Iron Hands, continuing last weeks post, I’ll put this in the “too strong” section since I agree that forcing mons to use really suboptimal Tera’s to deal with one specific threat isn’t ideal (but is an option for teams that are very Basculegion weak).

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9doublesou-1962349469-kca31ui9o2wrnmxhk2u42gm7cmrbgdepw
Here Basculegion is able to use a defensive Tera to beat stuff that would normally check it, and is able to pick up a lot of ko’s despite the opposing team having checks + screens.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9doublesou-722726
Here Basc is positioned next to a follow me pokemon, which makes its checks unable to deal with it, and picks up a lot of ko’s.

Replays where Basc doesn’t look too strong:
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9doublesou-1962121816-vqpbqipgd4oycj7ypzs2mupebjvks99pw
Basc rain plays against Roaring Moon & sun, and so speed control adequately handles Basculegion.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9doublesou-1962758305-38xql3dlvxub36f33n3j5xk0wurybvfpw
Here Basculegion plays against Fullroom, and it isn’t able to take the field until the very end where it’s 1vs a lot and it isn’t able to ko a Diancie that has gotten defense boosts.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9doublesou-1963919668-7ruta8kr1phmqrtqy5fpcxwd6h16q8ppw
Basculegion plays against TR, and is able to get on the field and exert pressure, but Iron Hands exerts more pressure and wins.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9doublesou-1966237642
Here having two Pokémon on the field that pressure Basculegion leads to it unfavorably trading and not getting much of anything done. Knock off is becoming more popular again, and it’s a great way to deal with Basculegion to knock off scarfs.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9doublesou-1962138807-7zk0q97o06hjg5atwbt9qn9h2x6sai7pw
Here speed control + Grassy Glide on Grassy Terrain handle Basculegion.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9doublesou-1962229327
Here TR and having constant threats on the field leave it no room to do much of anything.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9doublesou-1962610405
Here good positioning with Chien-Pao forces Basculegion to lock into Aqua jet and forces it to be deadweight.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9doublesou-1962747103
Here Basc is forced to be used early and it locks into wave crash, then once it’s brought back again later it loses quickly to Chien-Pao.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9doublesou-1962960827-uaomqyxntg7vdgg4w7l7wg3jn0ohm9dpw
Here both teams have Basculegion, and both adequately check it, either via a faster dark type in Roaring Moon, or through a def booster with Garganacl.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9doublesou-721852
Here Basculegion is made inept by Kingambit.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9doublesou-722006
Here adequate speed control and having Pokémon that offensively beat Basc (Chi-yu, Iron Hands, Flutter Mane) neuter it.

Neutral replays:
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9doublesou-1962751335-f9g7uz6tpj39e565v7oer8l1304w3oupw
Basculegion doesn’t do much here other than immediately switch out due to being pressured.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9doublesou-1963923971-42ie0myf9jf6ikiegsmntksdneqsfjupw
Doesn’t take the field here.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9doublesou-1962383880-1ecdisj4w5jwu5vzfg4xh8uhhvvp5igpw
Doesn’t take the field here.

So in this round of analysis:
4 replays where Basc looks too strong.
11 replays where it is adequately checked.
3 neutral replays.

To add to the previous analysis, that means:
8 replays total where it looks too strong.
20 replays where it’s adequately checked.
11 neutral replays.

I think this pretty clearly shows that players are able to adequately check Basculegion, and it’s not too strong for the metagame. Can it take over and win games given the proper positioning, elimination of its checks, or skillful play? Absolutely, but the same can be said for any top offensive threat. We’ve seen the same from things like Kommo-o, Diancie, or Iron Hands.

To further drive the point home of how you can play around Basculegion, I think the following replay is useful. This game was in the first week of SCL, where the male form of Basculegion was not yet legal, and thus players didn’t need to consider it in the builder.
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9doublesou-720428
In this game, Basculegion-f is brought, but is unable to do much due to good positioning & speed control via TR, and by the time it is able to get off a last respects late in the game, Diancie already has defense boosts, and is able to survive it easily. Now if this were a male Basculegion, would it be any different? I don’t think so. So even if a team isn’t designed to counter Basculegion, good play can still beat it. DNB.
 

bagel

formerly bage1
is a Tiering Contributoris the defending DOU Circuit Champion
unedited textwall ramblings incoming

I feel pretty strongly that Basc should be banned and was a bit surprised that my analysis of the games differed quite a bit from yours, so I thought I would go through the replays and explain what I see. Of course, there is most definitely some confirmation bias at play but nothing you can do about that. I'd also mention that I originally thought freeing Basc would potentially be fine with the new grasses + glide returning but yeah my opinion has changed.


https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9doublesou-1962121816-vqpbqipgd4oycj7ypzs2mupebjvks99pw
Basc rain plays against Roaring Moon & sun, and so speed control adequately handles Basculegion.
Here Madaraaaa sacks Pelipper for no reason and the game is pretty lost. Basc comes in with 1 mon dead and eats a +1 tera fire Ivy Cudgle. I see a team from Eragon that is heavily prepped for Basc. Thund is an UR mon that conveniently has a god MU into basc. I see a team from Madaraaa that does not adequetly utilize and facilitate Basc's brokenness. Where are the partners that really threaten traditional counterplay to Basc (fast speed control options, dark types, SE prio attacks)? Chien Pao is the only thing that remotely threatens Moon and it burns tera then trades 2/3 of its health for nothing because Eragon knows he HAS to keep Moon healthy for Basc. Its turn 1 and Basc dominates the decisionmaking.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9doublesou-1962758305-38xql3dlvxub36f33n3j5xk0wurybvfpw
Here Basculegion plays against Fullroom, and it isn’t able to take the field until the very end where it’s 1vs a lot and it isn’t able to ko a Diancie that has gotten defense boosts.
I don't think Basc looks bad here at all? It still OHKOs a Cress and does 37! to a +6 Diancie. The entire game is Hugo making positioning to not let Basc in outside of TR because of its ability to Just Win this matchup if that happens once Indeedee is out.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9doublesou-1963919668-7ruta8kr1phmqrtqy5fpcxwd6h16q8ppw
Basculegion plays against TR, and is able to get on the field and exert pressure, but Iron Hands exerts more pressure and wins.
Basc OHKOs a Volcanion from full with a neutral physical attack lmao. Only 2 mons dead. (Also doesnt have tera grass apparently because that may have won most likely). Once again I see a game dominated by Basculegion and managaing Basculegion checks. Loudwinner's only hope is to save Scarf Lando to maybe pick off a chipped Basc, or get into a favorable position and Rage Powder 1 attack away with Sinistcha while praying for no tera grass. Congrats to them for managing to do so but once again I think this doesn't actually show Basc performing poorly. Why is OHKOing 2 bulky mons and dictating the course of the game with its presence a bad showing.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9doublesou-1966237642
Here having two Pokémon on the field that pressure Basculegion leads to it unfavorably trading and not getting much of anything done. Knock off is becoming more popular again, and it’s a great way to deal with Basculegion to knock off scarfs.
Here Basc comes in with one mon dead after a free switch in front of 2 mons that pressure it. Looking at the game at this point, to me it seems that a late game Basc with speed control OHKOs Arcticblasts entire team and it was wholly uneeded for it to come in so early. The turn is called wrong and Basc gets knocked off after doing nothing. I do not think this is a display of Basc doing poorly any more than it is of poor playing.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9doublesou-1962138807-7zk0q97o06hjg5atwbt9qn9h2x6sai7pw
Here speed control + Grassy Glide on Grassy Terrain handle Basculegion.
Here Rillaboom is wisely preserved for when Basc is on the board, but it still manages to OHKO perhaps the bulkiest mon in the format from full. I do think this is a good example of a bad Basculegion team from SuckyLucky. I may think Basc is broken but that doesn't mean it can go on any team and just win games. It needs certain support to thrive and I think additional speed control is a near necessity for Basculegion. The same goes for other banned pokemon like Ape, it can't just go on any team and we have recognized its brokenness in conjunction with how it takes advantage of certain supporting options.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9doublesou-1962229327
Here TR and having constant threats on the field leave it no room to do much of anything.
We have another apparent god Sunny Day Thund appearence. Zee also loses all of their anti-tr mons on turns 1 and 2. I don't want to be telling people to run the Thundurus Roaring Moon core because of its good MU into Basculegion. But yeah I concede Basc does not look great here.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9doublesou-1962610405
Here good positioning with Chien-Pao forces Basculegion to lock into Aqua jet and forces it to be deadweight.
Yeah this is just a broken Ogerpon game. Please suspect Hearthflame next please.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9doublesou-1962747103
Here Basc is forced to be used early and it locks into wave crash, then once it’s brought back again later it loses quickly to Chien-Pao.
Yeah bad showing from Basc here, Jello should def be Follow Me Oger here. Although I don't think clicking wave crash is that bad, actually doing something early-midgame isnt a knock on it even if it impeeds its game sweeping abilities.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9doublesou-1962960827-uaomqyxntg7vdgg4w7l7wg3jn0ohm9dpw
Here both teams have Basculegion, and both adequately check it, either via a faster dark type in Roaring Moon, or through a def booster with Garganacl.
1 team has a Basc without any speed control help, I've already said my piece on that. The other team the basc doesn't need to come out until everything except for its dedicated counter is left, of course it loses to the mon whose main niche is to beat Basc. It also does a decent job keeping +6 Garg low enough for flutter anyways so I'd say it did its job good enough.

No offense but this game was not played very well in my opinion. Feyy tera's their singular Gambit (and Basc answer) answer away from being a Gambit answer then brings Basc in front of a Kingambit to Aqua Jet. Idk like yes Basc is made inept here but I don't think its actually a good example of why it should remain in DOU.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9doublesou-722006
Here adequate speed control and having Pokémon that offensively beat Basc (Chi-yu, Iron Hands, Flutter Mane) neuter it.
Akaru has a very good anti-Basc team and I agree it neuters Basc quite well here. I think TR is one of the most conistent ways to shut down Basc right now as they are most always scarf. On the other hand I think TR has lots of difficult matchups outside of Basc and isn't the most consistent play style overall with how powerful lots of the fast TW mons are. I think Basc pushes the meta a more towards RPS style games where matchup unfortunately decides a lot of the way the game goes. We've seen this team from zee lose to semiroom stuff twice now in pretty similar manners (this time and vs Arcticblast).


Ok lastly I want to say I hope this didn't come off as too harsh, I wasn't trying to bash anyone's teams or playing if it came off that way.

TLDR I think looking just at what Basc does in games misses the forest for the trees a bit here. In these replays I see games dictated by the threat of a Basculegion endgame where decisions revolve around how not to lose to Basculegion, even if that means not sending out Rillaboom/Roaring Moon/etc until they are in perfect position to handle Basc. I don't dislike long-term planning, in fact it's the main reason I prefer DOU over VGC, but I find the attention Basculegion demands and endgame pressure it provides even when sitting in the back is way too unhealthy for the metagame.

ps ban flutter too might post about it later as well
 

Actuarily

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I agree that in the replays I pulled if the Basculegion player had played better, they may have won, just as in every match the loser typically could have made better plays.

This I think illustrates why Basculegion is not broken. A crucial aspect of determining whether an element is broken is if the person who plays worse brings that element, and still wins, as put by the definition of broken on the Smogon Tiering Framework:

III.) Broken - elements that are too good relative to the rest of the metagame such that "more skillful play" is almost always rendered irrelevant.
The idea of me looking at every replay is to show that if you bring Basculegion, you still must play better to win, which shows that Basculegion isn’t banworthy.
 
Just a quick note to say I am very glad that a double suspect was allowed here. I think the circumstances strongly warranted it, as both Flutter and Basc were previously suspected and banned by the community. By that same logic, I believe Ursaluna could also have been included in the slate for voters this time around. That said, I understand that the latest survey may have been inconclusive re: Ursaluna. I'm hopeful and expect that both ghosts will get sent back to the Uber netherworld this time, notwithstanding Actuarily's "spirited" defense.

I think Ogerpon may be next up to bat. I'll suggest that if there is some chance people think Wellspring, in addition to Hearthflame, is busted, they should have the option to vote on that at the same time too. When there is a backlog of mons that are potentially busted and more likely on the way soon, as is the current situation, extraordinary actions are warranted to expedite getting voting done to settle the Meta as much, and as soon, as possible.
 
:basculegion:

posted enough on Basc in the last thread but going by The Tiering Framework, Basc clearly fits into

IV.) Unhealthy - elements that are neither uncompetitive nor broken yet are deemed undesirable for the metagame such that they inhibit "skillful play" to a large extent.

- These are elements that may not limit either team building or battling skill enough individually but combine to cause an effect that is undesirable for the metagame.

Keeping Basculegion-M turns the tier into a 100% Rillaboom usage, 100% Torn usage clownfest where the back 50% of the game revolves around it. Obviously being slightly hyperbolic but I don't see a reasonable argument against this Pokemon being metagame and individual game-warping to the point of absurdity.

:flutter-mane:

Flutter's busted. I think I did not realize this until I truly looked at the set variety it can run. Every spread from Timid 252 Speed, the dex spread, and Modest Specs have completely different ranges on what actually beats it. The vast, vast majority of Pokemon do not get to do this because they don't have an absurdly minmaxed stat spread and fantastic typing. I don't think the "Flutter is frail" thing holds up in practice when 1. it stat checks every special attacker and 2. it doesn't get hit twice because it kills everything. There is an astonishing lack of decent balance that does not have a ton of priority users, mostly because you need to pin down Flutter twice to actually kill it. Fires do not comfortably beat it 1v1 (Volcanion gets 2HKOd by Shadow Ball and marginal chip/Rocks (which is not that hard to do with Chi-Yu or any reasonable partner), Heatran doesn't OHKO with Flash Cannon) but you need them and 4 other priority users anyway because other Pokemon do not beat Flutter Mane.
 
Last edited:

Arcticblast

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I think this is a really cool double suspect because it shows us two ways a Pokemon can be broken.

:basculegion:
You can't take a fair fight against Basculegion on the battlefield, so you have to load up on answers in the teambuilder. A team without a dedicated plan against Basculegion is a team asking to lose to Last Respects. The way players are opting to beat Basculegion is to just go over the top, attempting to get far enough ahead that Basculegion can't win fast enough. The best teams in this format are all incredibly aggressive and fast-paced; the few teams that don't present immediate threats are trying to race to set them up, like Alolatales and full TR comps. For all but the most linear teams, hitting Basculegion before it can murder you is paramount. The race to beat Basculegion leads to a format where every team has to come out the gate swinging, and balance and bulky teams get left in the dust. I don't think a meta this fast-paced is sustainable in the long term. If we can't get past "play perfect against Basc or lose" then we're not going anywhere fast.

There are a few things out there with playable defensive matchups against Basculegion, like Roaring Moon and Wo-Chien, but those Pokemon aren't particularly common because of the other broken Ghost!

:flutter_mane:
Flutter Mane doesn't have any particular things that make it broken. It's just the best Pokemon in the format - and it's so much better than everything else that it warps the format in teambuilding and demands premium respect in games. I've been saying since shortly after Home dropped that "there is no combination of five Pokemon that would not be improved by Flutter Mane in the last slot," and I think this is true now more than ever. The combination of power, speed, and flexibility is just way too much to pass up on.

The meta impact of Flutter Mane isn't really noticed but it's worth mentioning: Flutter has pushed out pretty much every special attacker that doesn't have a good matchup into it, both because it does everything they'd want to do better and... because it just beats them. 135 Special Defense on a Pokemon this fast and strong is just so hard to get past. Flutter even matches up well into most of the format's physical threats; Kingambit has the easiest time against it, but the two are locked in an eternal game of Tera chicken, and that's probably the best physical attacker into Flutter Mane. Ogerpon can threaten it with its own strong attacks, but Hearthflame can't switch into Specs Flutter without putting itself in Shadow Ball range, and Wellspring is forced to Terastallize to stomach a Tera Fairy Moonblast. Flutter Mane existing has also made pretty much every Fighting type that isn't also crazy (Iron Hands) disappear, as well as most Dragons and offensive Ghosts and Psychics that would otherwise be decent picks. We've seen a few Roaring Moons again now that it has Knock Off and resists Water/Ghost, but a bunch of other cool stuff is just gone. When's the last time you've seen Great Tusk or Walking Wake do anything cool? How about Samurott? Wouldn't it be cool to see Regidrago? Hell, this format makes me miss Ting-Lu. Of all the Pokemon...

I will be voting to ban both Flutter Mane and Basculegion, and I encourage others to do the same for the health and diversity of the format. That being said, I do think this format's still fun! I just think it would be more fun if we fixed this haunting problem.
 

Fangame10

DOU Master of Snow-based Trick Room teams
is a Tiering Contributor
my reasons for banning both are simple, I refuse to make more than two or three sentences in every NP thread I post in.

Big Spooky Fish makes grass monke viable and that sucks.

Big Dinosaur Ghost makes grass monke viable because priority and physical attack, that also sucks
 

Kenpwnchi

formerly Pwndkthnx
I want both of them banned because of what the latter two said above. I mean, seriously. It's REALLY time for something refreshing. And, no, that SHOULDN'T include Flutter Mane (because we all know Basculegion-M is getting spanked). I feel like without both of those Ghost PKMN, DOU can POTENTIALLY develop into something better than we could ever imagine. Of course, this won't be a reality is both of them stay. So, vote ban! Okidogi?
 

LovelyLuna

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While most of the points made up are completely fair, It feels like some of the reasons are to have a 'different' metagame. Similar to most metas, when you ban something, something will usually take its place. The tier will probably warp around a new Special Attacker time after :Flutter Mane:'s ban. Not sure if the ban should go through in an attempt to get a fresh metagame, as that doesn't equate to a healthy one.

:Flutter Mane: just doesn't feel as restricting to me. You don't have to dedicate sub-optimal teamslots for it and many pokemon can attract more attention in battle. There are enough pokemon that beat/force it out, which is a huge momentum loss for doubles. It's probably restricting in the way that a lot of pokemon are invalidated by its existence, but this kind of applies to many pokemon, if they're outclassed, they're not noteworthy. I don't think Flutter Mane pushes this to the extent it becomes an issue. Because you'll still see teams do fine in tournaments without :Flutter Mane:. It is a super strong pokemon and stands out as the very best, but it doesn't seem broken for the tier

Flutter Mane doesn't have any particular things that make it broken. It's just the best Pokemon in the format - and it's so much better than everything else that it warps the format in teambuilding and demands premium respect in games
This is probably the best way to describe how I feel about :Flutter Mane:, except the warping to a lesser extent
 

Kenpwnchi

formerly Pwndkthnx
While most of the points made up are completely fair, It feels like some of the reasons are to have a 'different' metagame. Similar to most metas, when you ban something, something will usually take its place. The tier will probably warp around a new Special Attacker time after :Flutter Mane:'s ban. Not sure if the ban should go through in an attempt to get a fresh metagame, as that doesn't equate to a healthy one.

:Flutter Mane: just doesn't feel as restricting to me. You don't have to dedicate sub-optimal teamslots for it and many pokemon can attract more attention in battle. There are enough pokemon that beat/force it out, which is a huge momentum loss for doubles. It's probably restricting in the way that a lot of pokemon are invalidated by its existence, but this kind of applies to many pokemon, if they're outclassed, they're not noteworthy. I don't think Flutter Mane pushes this to the extent it becomes an issue. Because you'll still see teams do fine in tournaments without :Flutter Mane:. It is a super strong pokemon and stands out as the very best, but it doesn't seem broken for the tier


This is probably the best way to describe how I feel about :Flutter Mane:, except the warping to a lesser extent
Well, naturally, a meta is gonna warp around a mon and, furthermore, become centralized if the mon in question is particularly strong. I can agree in that Flutter Mane doesn't seem as restricting, but if everybody is drawn to using it, then it kinda is. If I'm not mistaken, it was mentioned above how Flutter Mane can just be slapped on almost any team. That being true, there are simply mons that won't ever get used because Flutter Mane is there to do it better.

I wouldn't say Flutter Mane is outrageous as Basculegion-M, but I do think it has been around long enough to where people are tired of it being around. So, I guess this is me saying, again, a healthy meta would certainly be a fresh start.
 

LovelyLuna

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Well, naturally, a meta is gonna warp around a mon and, furthermore, become centralized if the mon in question is particularly strong. I can agree in that Flutter Mane doesn't seem as restricting, but if everybody is drawn to using it, then it kinda is. If I'm not mistaken, it was mentioned above how Flutter Mane can just be slapped on almost any team. That being true, there are simply mons that won't ever get used because Flutter Mane is there to do it better.

I wouldn't say Flutter Mane is outrageous as Basculegion-M, but I do think it has been around long enough to where people are tired of it being around. So, I guess this is me saying, again, a healthy meta would certainly be a fresh start.
Yes, so I think that even if :Flutter Mane: gets banned, the meta will still be centralised. If the centralisation is as restrictive as :Basculegion:, then I can see the issue, but because I think there are enough ways around :Flutter Mane:, I don't find the centralised meta that big of an issue. Flutter Mane fitting on almost every team and outclassing certain pokemon isn't as bad to me, there are other fine pokemon that can fit on a variety of archetypes and invalidate other pokemon through otclassing them, in every meta imo. I'll admit, while I'm not as knowledgeable on dou, looking at the above usage stats, there seem to be other pokemon approaching if not above 50%, chances are, they're invalidating some pokemon by being so good.

I just think being tired of the pokemon at the top of the meta isn't a valid enough reason to consider a ban. People will tired of a stale meta, for sure, but I don't believe that banning used pokemon will be healthier for a metagame. A fresh start would be nice and start as fun, but it will quickly settle and then you have the same complaints
 

JRL

JRL#3736
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First I want to start with flutter, with which I will be very brief, great speed and a very good special attacker with many roles to play. Its only weak point is its low defense and most of the best Pokémon in the meta are physical, which makes me consider that Flutter is much more sustainable both offensively and defensively. Basculegion has bigger control problems for the metagame, it is true that the priority of rilla + ogerpons can control it better, but it is still a problem in the endgame where it can wipe out entire teams, with the right supports you can get the maximum potential of Basculegion , last respect is too dangerous and his set band makes him a threat at any time in the battle. I think it affects the build a lot and if you are not prepared for Basculegion it will destroy you.
 

Yoda2798

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Doubles Leader
:sv/Basculegion:
Basculegion

Grassy Glide Rillaboom makes a difference, but Basculegion being able to invest to always live from full without losing too much power means it's not as reliable as one would like. Ogerpon is also an incredible new partner for Basculegion, on top of obviously being a great offensive partner, which is what Basculegion likes, it can also easily fit Follow Me into its moveset and safely redirect away Sucker Punch and Grassy Glides where needed. Another great Basculegion partner in Chien-Pao also limits the effectiveness of Grassy Glide to a lesser extent, Life Orb Sucker Punch does over half to Rillaboom, meaning if it has been worn down from earlier in the match, as will often be the case, then Chien-Pao can KO Rillaboom before it can use Grassy Glide. The meta trends I mentioned in my post in the previous thread do still work against Basculegion, but are more minor than the addition of Grassy Glide and also lessened by the introduction of Ogerpon as a partner. So I think the effect of Grassy Glide and Ogerpon basically cancel each other out and leave Basculegion in a similar position to it was pre-DLC, so I will be voting Ban once again for that reason.

:sv/Flutter Mane:
Flutter Mane

Flutter Mane is a really good Pokemon, but I very much do not think it's banworthy. It was the best Pokemon at the end of the Home meta, and will likely end up being the best Pokemon again in the DLC 1 meta, but that alone doesn't make a Pokemon banworthy.

Let's take a look at how Flutter Mane performed in SCL replays:


The game is dominated by qsns' Tera Fire Kommo-o, which walls Flutter Mane, so it isn't able to do much. However it wasn't even the Kommo-o that ended up KOing Flutter Mane, it was the Rillaboom which cleanly dealt with it by tanking a Moonblast then KOing back with Wood Hammer.
Nails wins with Trick Room against Tenzai's team which is quite fast and frail, Flutter Mane never enters the field.
The game again revolves around Feyy's Tera Fire Kommo-o, which Flutter Mane can't touch with its attacks. This one is carrying Taunt which can prevent Clangorous Soul though, but JRL opts to finish off a 30% Rillaboom instead. Flutter Mane also does half to Ogerpon before going down after two Fire Punches.
xqiht Knocks Off Iron Hands' Assault Vest with Roaring Moon while using Dazzling Gleam with Flutter Mane, however Iron Hands survives and KOs back with Heavy Slam.
Flutter Mane falls victim to Choice Scarf Tera Steel Gholdengo Turn 1 before being able to do anything.
Nails' Flutter Mane plays a part in winning here, but doesn't do anything too extraordinary, functioning as a fast partner to finish off the 30% Ogerpon and Landorus-T for Kingambit, which was the real gamewinner.
The first Flutter Mane mirror so far, the game revolves around Trick Room with the Flutter Manes being kept in the back for lategame after it ends. Meminger21 loses what looked to be a locked up game after Flutter Mane is unable to KO Goodra-Hisui with Shadow Ball from 40%, and later dies in one hit from Volcanion's Heavy Slam.
Another Flutter Mane mirror, Akaru's is led and 2HKOs zee's Landorus-T as it opts to use Stealth Rock, giving it breathing space to safely attack. zee's own Flutter Mane then comes out and does some underwhelming damage due to being a Booster Energy Speed set, while Akaru's Flutter Mane is allowed to trade with it due to a combination of not being targeted by Shadow Ball, and dodging a Bleakwind Storm from zee's Tornadus.
Feyy's Booster Energy Speed Flutter Mane spends a few turns spamming Icy Wind before dying, attempting to counter xqiht's Tailwind. This means Flutter Mane ends up having little impact on the game, with xqiht able to click Tailwind once then use more meaningful moves in comparison.
Xrn's Booster Energy Speed Flutter Mane deals <30% (with Beads of Ruin) to Assault Vest Kingambit before being KOed in return.
JRL's Flutter Mane, powered up by Tera Fairy and Sunny Day from Tornadus, uses Moonblast to OHKO the Kingambit which switches in for Ogerpon, but fails to do any more due to being 2HKOed by Grassy Glide from Rillaboom. zee's (presumably Booster Energy) Flutter Mane deals half to Tornadus before being KOed by Ogerpon in Tailwind, despite having Protosynthesis Speed active.

So looking at actual matches I really don't think Flutter Mane is dominating at all, even in the case of Akaru's Flutter Mane against zee which does relatively a lot, that was only due to zee opting not to target it at a couple of possible opportunities, and missing a Bleakwind Storm. From a teambuilding perspective, Flutter Mane is being beat by Pokemon like Iron Hands, Rillaboom, Ogerpon, Kingambit, and Volcanion which are all great anyways, while other Pokemon like Tornadus for Tailwind, Diancie for Trick Room, or Landorus-T using one of its various offensive sets can also function as checks as well. There's no silver bullet you need to fit on your team for Flutter Mane, plenty of otherwise good Pokemon are capable of dealing with it.

Usage-wise, Flutter Mane's not even first in SCL so far, being just behind Landorus-T, which is another really strong, splashable Pokemon with multiple different sets. I'm not buying the argument that Flutter Mane + 5 is much better than everything else, it that were the case it should be reflected higher in SCL usage and it isn't, Flutter Mane sits in place with the other top Pokemon of the meta and performs fairly but not overwhelmingly in-game.

I'm not seeing this supposed unique level of influence over the meta either, plenty of Pokemon have dropped off from pre-Home and it's not just because of Flutter Mane returning. THE reason Roaring Moon was so good before was for Tailwind, it was pretty bad outside of that and has been almost entirely replaced by Tornadus now. Wo-Chien was already disappointing pre-Home as a defensive Pokemon with horrible typing and a quite arguably worse than Intimidate ability, and now two of the new top Pokemon run U-Turn, among other additions like Tornadus.

What good Fighting-types aren't viable because of Flutter Mane? Stuff like Pawmot and the Tauros formes were fringe already pre-Home, and while Great Tusk was good before it was moreso as a Ground-type and has been largely displaced by Landorus-T being a lot better for that, while also checking it along with other new Pokemon like Tornadus and Cresselia. Iron Hands aside, Kommo-o is good, while Lilligant-Hisui has its place, and Great Tusk still has a niche on a few teams over Landorus-T. Fighting-types just largely suck in DOU, the best one from last gen (Urshifu-R) is banned, while the usable ones from the last few gens like Pheromosa, Scrafty, and Terrakion are not legal.

Dragon-wise it's a similar story: Dragapult, Dragonite, Goodra-Hisui, Kommo-o. Roaring Moon, and Walking Wake are all usable to some extent currently, while some of the best Dragons in oldgens like Kyurem-Black, Zygarde, Kingdra, or even the Latis aren't legal. Tapu Fini was a bigger problem for Dragon-types due to terrain, and this gen they have access to Tera as well to help with Fairy-types (of which Flutter Mane is still not the only one).

Psychic-types are yet again in a similar boat: Cresselia, Indeedee-F, Farigiraf, and Armarouge are all usable, while oldgen staples like Megas, Necrozma, Tapu Lele, or Metagross are illegal. Gothitelle's Shadow Tag is banned, Jirachi has no Follow Me, and Mew still seen some use pre-DLC despite its neutured movepool, which is the biggest blow for it. Scream Tail was a usable option pre-home but has largely been replaced by Prankster screen setters since then.

For Ghost-types, Dragapult, Gholdengo, and Spectrier are all still viable, and that's basically all the good Ghost-types there are. Ceruledge having Shadow Sneak means it actually matches well into Flutter Mane, so that's not what's holding that back either. They'll obviously see less use since Flutter Mane is a better Ghost-type, but that applies to any good Pokemon.

Samurott-Hisui is not even the worst into Flutter Mane having hazards + priority, it's just not that great a Pokemon anyways; while Ting-Lu was passive and meh before already, Landorus-T is a better bulky Ground-type that can set Stealth Rock while being infinitely less passive, it's not Flutter Mane's fault. Regidrago hating every good Fairy-type isn't super notable and it's just an okay one-trick pony anyways. Walking Wake does have a uniquely bad matchup into Flutter Mane but I would note it's still not the only thing going against it; Tornadus, Volcanion, Heatran, priority users, and Cresselia existing do not help Walking Wake.

Now as I have rambled on for too long about now, I don't believe Flutter Mane is significantly more straining in the builder than other Pokemon, and while there will obviously be a few Pokemon which see less use because of it existing, either as a replacement or a check, it's not any different than other top Pokemon like Landorus-T or Rillaboom. Pokemon which are good with Flutter Mane existing are basically the same as without it existing, the wide changes in viability due to the expanded dex going from pre-Home to Home should not be attributed solely to Flutter Mane. It's manageable in the builder and in actual games as I described above, Flutter Mane's just the best at being a really good Pokemon, it's not broken, so I will be voting Do Not Ban for that reason.
 

SMB

is a Top Tiering Contributoris a Past SPL Championis a Former Smogon Metagame Tournament Circuit Championis a Former Old Generation Tournament Circuit Champion
World Defender
I've already commented on this where it needs to be commented on but this idea is terrible. While I understand the idea of trying to speed up things that need to have a suspect, this is just plain wrong. There is a saying, "Dress me slowly, I'm in a hurry", which can be applied to this case. In the most pressing moments it is essential to have a certain amount of patience in order to get things right. And getting things right means having a balanced metagame with as many elements present as possible.
With this suspect, in the event that both pokemon result in a ban, we will be skipping a metagame with and without one of the two elements and all the dlc additions, with all that entails, and, mainly, the risk of eliminating elements that could be present in the current tier.

First I'd like to say that I think the idea of suspecting 2 mons at once is great, with so many good mons added to the metagame its good that we can move forward fast and not be stuck with them for the next months. Like most other people I do agree that Basculegion-M needs to be removed. Nothing can take Last Respects in the late game, tera and other pokemons abilities can help it get around priority, its good like nothing else and there aren't really reliable counters to it. Flutter Mane is a little bit uncertain for me, its clear that it would become the best mon in the metagame and would likely be used on the majority of teams. At the same time unlike Basculegion it does have real answers like Heatran, Volcanion or Amoongus. Its also checked by the other tier 1 mon - Ogerpon-Hearthflame. For the moment Flutter doesn't seem obviously broken to me and I would like to see how the metagame evolves after the Basculegion ban before we remove it.
And precisely the doubts frania mentioned about flutter mane is what I was referring to, how are you going to vote considering what a metagame would be like without one of the pokemon and with the other one, if that metagame has never been played?

Historically, suspect tests have focused on one element at a time for reasons like the ones I mentioned. Maintaining this practice allows us to evaluate and adjust the metagame more accurately and with due consideration, which is the ultimate purpose of why we are doing this.

Again, I understand the rush, but this is a practice that should no longer be done.


For anyone who checks my pokemon usage, it's not too hard to guess my opinion of flutter mane. Of course, I think it's one of the best pokemon at the moment, but it's nowhere near as good or as splashable as I've read.

About the splashability, I think it's just a false sense. In the teambuilding process it's very easy to have 5 pokemon and say "I don't know what would be the best sixth pokemon, I'll put flutter mane", I've done it myself on several occasions, and why not do it? It's a fast, versatile, hard hitting pokemon with a very good type. In my experience, the reality is that most of the time there is usually a better fit than flutter mane. While it is a pokemon that shines in many aspects, it also has many flaws, and you only have to look at the viability ranking to see that, although it is not updated for the dlc pending the conclusion of this suspect, I can barely count on the fingers of one hand the pokemon that flutter mane beats in a 1v1, and with the dlc it loses out on this count even more.

Of course, we're playing doubles and 1v1's don't matter, but I think it shows a bit the misconception of how good it is. For me, it wasn't the best pokemon before the dlc nor is it now, I don't even consider it tier 1 in either.

Another opinion I have about it, is that it's more of an enabler than a cleaner or whatever you want to call it. To give you an example, for me, it's not chi-yu enabling flutter mane with his ability, it's flutter mane enabling chi-yu, chipping and leaving things in its range. The sets we've been seeing recently with icy wind further prove the opinion I've always had about this pokemon.

To sum up, very good pokemon, with many virtues and more flaws than what is being said. I'm not going to say much more about it because a lot of things have been said and I really don't think this pokemon deserves the attention it's getting.


I'm not going to review basculegion replays where the team that loses to it does so by having an electric type pokemon without electric type attacks, given the experience it doesn't seem like the best practice.

I was thinking about it during this period of suspect and I really don't think there has been anything similar or even close to basculegion in doubles, I'm not talking about how good or bad this pokemon is, but the concept of how it works, maybe what I thought it was more similar to was beat up? although I soon abandoned that idea, they are not really similar because one can be avoided more easily, you need two pokemon, etc... And the other is already enabled by doing nothing. However, I used it to introduce the concept of late game mechanics for basculegion, as opposed to what would be an early game mechanic like beat up, because as we all know, in late game beat up is not as powerful as it can be in turn 1.

I think we can all agree that basculegion's weakest point is the early game, where he's just another scarfer, often worse than others because he's very limited in terms of his movepool. This is taken to such an extreme that you could say that until the game is advanced to a certain point the player who has basculegion is at a disadvantage against their opponent for using basculegion, and after that point they are at an advantage for having it.

Perhaps the key to this suspect is to determine which way the balance shifts, putting the disadvantages of having basculegion in the early game in exchange for having basculegion in the late game.

Obviously, the main reason that could unbalance it is how strong last respects is when the game is very advanced, being able to OHKO practically the whole metagame. However, there are certain points that I think are not being valued enough in its counterpart. I don't really remember a metagame with more priority attacks than the one we currently have, nor with more dark and grass types (most of them with priority). And how to forget about the funny mechanic, honestly there is something I still don't understand about how many people use it, how many times have you been in the situation of clicking tera water with landorus or tera fire with rillaboom, to give a few examples? I bet close to none.

If something like basculegion exists and is so powerful in late game, why wouldn't you use the resources the game gives you on pokemon that you are never going to tera to level the scale? At the moment this applies to basculegion, but could apply for any top tier pokemon.

I think before they were banned, I was the first to use tera ghost landorus and rillaboom to beat ursaluna, and tera normal on these for basculegion. I never really felt at a disadvantage for using them, quite the opposite, and they have always felt more useful than any other tera.

Just as for flutter mane I find it harder to understand the reasons why it is here, with basculegion I understand it, although I think a lot more could be done to check it.


No te conviertas en un simple reflejo de las opiniones de los demás. Sé tú mismo, sé único y piensa por ti mismo. :blobthumbsup:
 
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Flutter Mane:
I've been on the ban flutter train for a long while. I think when HOME dropped, we got a good month or two of healthy flutter meta- flutter was strong and definitely the best pokemon in the format, but not overbearing. It fit into and around bulky team comps and was a great breaker but also very physically frail in a way that allowed semiroom teams to play around it and threaten it pretty well. As the HOME meta developed though, we realized that the same issues that made flutter broken before HOME were beginning to manifest again. For one, certain setup sweepers (NP chi-yu, SD hands, SD Kingambit, weak armor/WP armarogue) or tera breakers (tera ghost dragapult, tera normal dnite) could often just completely shred through these bulky balance team compositions (especially with ursaluna banned), and flutter enabled these type of team compositions far too well. As semiroom compositions and particularly cresselia semiroom compositions began to suffer, tornadus tailwind/sun offense, setup mon + redirector, and chien pao hyper offense compositions began to take over. All of these comps focused on trying to overwhelm the opponent with sheer offensive momentum and led to very unsatisfying and lopsided matchups along with games where the outcome might be near-decided very early on just because of how lopsided momentum shifts were.

A majority of the issue that led to these compositions existing and excelling can be traced to two sources- One, flutter simply eradicates a lot of pokemon that might otherwise be really good in the metagame and makes them unviable to put on a team in the first place. Dragon types in general were poised to fit in perfectly in the semiroom composition meta while also help deal with the newer setup archetypes, but simply didn't exist outside dragonite, which was best used by turning itself into not-dragon type, and dragapult, which excelled particularly because it was a dragon that could actually outspeed and beat flutter. Both of these were best used by terastallizing themselves into not dragon types. Two, flutter is just insanely good at supporting the setup pokemon I mentioned earlier. SMB raises a good point by mentioning that flutter is more of an 'enabler' than an endgame cleaner in its own right- the combination of its speed and sheer offensive power/coverage allows it to pinpoint specific key pokemon and target those down by either bringing them into range of its teammates to KO or just by exerting enough pressure that these pokemon can't safely take the field, allowing your setup pokemon to setup or continue to clean. This in turn is what made these matchups feel so hard to play against. You often did have the tools to break through whichever setup mon was on the field that you needed to deal with, but doing so when there was a flutter on the field supporting it made it incomparably tougher.

All in all, ban flutter.

Basculegion:
Not writing too much here, but clearly the attempt to see how it fares on reintroducing it to DOU has been not successful. For this I want to focus a little more on the process of how exactly we got to this double suspect situation rather than the pokemon itself. In terms of my own thoughts on basc, I thought similarly to other council members that the jump in power level with DLC1, especially with some new checks, might warrant a quick further look into basc. The problem with basc as we've seen once again, though, is that it's not traditionally broken in a way that an increase in power level will make it a reasonable pokemon in the format. It's undeniable that basc plays in a remarkably one-dimensional manner, but that itself is incredibly hard to contend with due to just how much sheer power it has along with the relative scarcity of ghost-type resists. As others have mentioned, what this situation leads to is a very extreme shift in the types of teams that are viable and reasonable to use. The best way to deal with basculegion is to have your own speed control and beat it down faster than it can do the same back to your team. Trick room can't do this very well because as it turns out, most trick room setters simply Die to last respects, so the premier option to do so is tornadus, which can get speed control up with a priority move, thus not caring as much about scarfed last respects. This is not to say semiroom is unviable, but very very limited to specific team comps and at much greater risk of just falling apart to basc late game. In the end, I don't think much has changed at all from its previous suspect and as such, basculegion is definitely still banworthy.



What I want to focus more on the situation that led to us needing to suspect two pokemon at once, and a proposal to help us not arrive at the same situation again. It's no wonder that a lot of people are unhappy with the council (us) deciding to unban basculegion. Naturally as a member of the council, part of the responsibility of this decision lies with me. For my part, part of the issue is my own misunderstanding regarding how ban/unban votes are held during the suspect slate process.

To give a quick recap on the process itself, at the start of a major metagame change where a large number of new pokemon are introduced to the tier (HOME, DLC, etc), we have been hosting a number of weekly slates where the council votes on all of the previously banned DUbers mons, any previously banned DUbers mons that have been reintroduced to the format, along with any of the newly introduced/reintroduced DOU mons that we consider noteworthy to vote on. For a council vote to result in a change, 5/7 council members must vote to change its current status. Finally, there were 4 slates over the course of DLC1 introduction, with one pre-release slate, one slate a few days post-release, and the remaining slates interspersed with a one week gap.

Now, I believe that having the slate process itself is good and useful for the tier. Without these slates we would continue to have nonsensical bans like jirachi in SV DOU or would have to wait to suspect down Ursaluna. This has also helped with unbanning stuff like volcarona last gen, which was banned for the very unique position it found itself in during DLC1 where it was an incredibly strong setup sweeper with few checks. Having these pokemon get unbanned without going through a full suspect process is helpful to speed up meta development - this also allows us to be more proactive in banning things during pre-dlc to have an immediately more healthy metagame with the knowledge that it can be fixed later on with less effort through these suspect slates.

However, I think the problem lies in the vote margins to re-ban something that was unbanned through a slate. If there are 5/7 votes to unban something on a given slate, it shouldn't take 5/7 votes to re-ban this same mon on a slate a few days later. The core problem here is that the initial votes to unban are based purely on theory, on how the council thinks the pokemon might perform if it were to be unbanned. Subsequent votes, however, are based on how the pokemon has actually performed over these short weeks. My initial thought regarding this process is that the pokemon is treated as a 'trial' mon in the new tier that it finds itself in. As such, it should need to maintain the same vote margin to remain in the new tier it was voted to. However, our current process makes it so that if a pokemon is voted to a new tier, it then takes the full opposite vote margin to reverse it back to its initial tier. In this scenario, if something were to be unbanned, it would take as extreme of a majority to re-ban it by suspect slate.

The end result of this is that any council votes that we take are a lot less reversible than I believe is healthy for the tier. There are cases (like this one with basculegion) where I believe it does not take long to develop a relatively informed personal opinion on the healthiness of having basculegion in the format in a manner that will likely not change through further metagame development. As such, having to wait for a suspect to simply reverse a council decision causes pretty significant delays in metagame development- especially in cases like this one where council decision already saw enough reversal during the slate period for basculegion to not have been banned in the first place, if council slates after the one that banned basculegion were to be used instead.
 

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For Basculegion: There are still votes remaining, but the result is decided. With Ban having received over 60% of the vote already, Basculegion will be banned from SV DOU. The current voting breakdown is as follows:

Ban: 62 (82.67%)
Do Not Ban: 12 (16.0%)
Votes Remaining: 1 (1.33%)
Total Voters: 75

Tagging Kris to implement, thanks!

On the other hand, Flutter Mane has reached the threshold to not be banned, with Do Not Ban having received 40% of the vote. The current breakdown is as follows:

Ban: 43 (57.33%)
Do Not Ban: 31 (41.33%)
Votes Remaining: 1 (1.33%)
Total Voters: 75

Post below your thoughts on how this may change the metagame, or any other Pokémon you feel should be considered for the next suspect!
 
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